Poll: Who is the greatest BJJ Player (GI)?

[zafh]

Thanks for your ever useful contributions 

I am here to help. 

The inputs show how many years they at least made a semi final - i doubt the cbjj etc keep the preliminary results and there is nothing on the web. Knwoing when they turned Black belt, we can infer which years they could have competed (if they didn't place, but obv can;t tell if it was due to elimination or they just weren't competing. If you discount the top 4 guys for their limited placings, then Royler is (reasonably) top.

Again I personally don't think taking a average of medal results is a measure of consistancy.  The data gets skewed in favour of player who never got silver or bronze regardless of the number of golds they get.

2 golds beats 11 golds 1 silver and 4 bronzes is not a good measure IMO.

I'll try and think of something

In head to head, in the gi, Xande has the edge, how many silvers Roger has is irrelevant. 2 of them he has because Xande beat him to the gold, how those silvers somehow contribute to give Roger the edge over the very guy who beat him is odd logic to say the least.

I am not looking at it head to head - more a measure of their performance over time.

Who is the better football team?
The team that one the premiership or the team who beat them in a match?

Nadal has beaten Federer more times and vice versa but Federer is ranker higher.

Even putting to one side who is better from Xande and Roger - Terere, Royler, Cobrinha and Ricardinho and Robson are all more consistent and i'll still say

WHOOP TERERE!

See my comments above about consistancy.

[J Sho]

In head to head, in the gi, Xande has the edge, how many silvers Roger has is irrelevant. 2 of them he has because Xande beat him to the gold, how those silvers somehow contribute to give Roger the edge over the very guy who beat him is odd logic to say the least.

I am not looking at it head to head - more a measure of their performance over time.

Who is the better football team?
The team that one the premiership or the team who beat them in a match?

Nadal has beaten Federer more times and vice versa but Federer is ranker higher.

The blue riband event in GI BJJ is the CBJJ Black Belt Mundials Absolute.
-Roger has won it once, Xande has won it twice.
-The absolute and weight have been won by the same person 5 times and 5 people have won the absolute twice but Xande is the only person to win both his weight and the absolute twice.
-Both times Xande won, he did it by beating Roger, a person widely acknowledged to be the greatest BJJ player of our time.
-When Roger won it, he did so by beating Romulo Barral, a great grappler, but 2 weight classes smaller and not a top tier player (albeit granted he did beat Xande in the semi).

Roger and Xande have fought 5 times (that i can think of) in the gi as black belts.
-Roger has won twice (via submission once)
-Xande has won 3 times
-One of the 2 occasions Roger won was when Xande fought up a weight class in 2005

Ignoring any smokescreens of ooh what happened when xyz and how many silvers and bronzes do they have, the 2 statements above are compelling reasons as to why Xande is more accomplished (regardless of my thinking Roger is the better BJJ Player).

Come up with something better...

[zafh]

Come up with something better...

Bearing in mind you have no choice over who you fight in each round and you decide what weight class you fight in.

For the blue riband event in GI BJJ is the CBJJ Black Belt Mundials Absolute who did better each year Roger or Xande?

2003 Roger
2004 Roger
2005 Roger
2006 Xande
2007 Roger
2008 Xande

Xande is leading Roger 3 fights to 2, but it is not Roger fault that Xande hasn't made it to the finals of the absolute the last 6 years in a row so he could fight Roger.

To be fair I have no idea how long Xande has been competing as a black belt or how many times he had fought in the mundials.  If he started in 2006 then that is awesome.

[J Sho]

True, but you can only fight at your weight or heavier. He wanted to take Roger on.

Xande became a black belt in 2002.

Ignoring how they did against other people, against each other, in a gi, Xande has done better, you are attaching way too much importance to the silvers.

And regardless of whether R cumulatively did better than X in individual years, if you told any bjj black belt, hell, if you said to any professional athlete in the world that 1 gold and 5 silvers was better than 2 gold and 3 bronze, they would laugh in your face  This seems to be our sticking point, so i won't go over it again.

2002 - Roger still a brown belt, Xande loses to Pe De Pano, Saulo beats Napao, PDP beats Saulo
2003 - I don't believe Xande entered, Roger loses to Pe De Pano
2004 - Roger beats Marcelinho, Jacare beats Xande, Jacarebeats Roger
2005 - Braulio beats Xande, Jacare beats Braulio, Roger beats Saulo, Jacare beats Roger
2006 - Xande beats Roberto Abreu, Roger beats Marcelo Garcia, Xande beats Roger
2007 - Romulo beats xande, roger beats drysdale, roger beats romulo
2008 - Roger beats Galvao, Xande beats Vella, Xande beats Roger

[andy-roberts]

Getting boring now

[zafh]

Ignoring how they did against other people, against each other, in a gi, Xande has done better,

But the poll / discussion Who is the greatest BJJ Player (GI)? not who has won more fights Xande or Roger, right?

You would have to take into account their performances against others wouldn't you?

you are attaching way too much importance to the silvers.
And regardless of whether R cumulatively did better than X in individual years, if you told any bjj black belt, hell, if you said to any professional athlete in the world that 1 gold and 5 silvers was better than 2 gold and 3 bronze, they would laugh in your face  This seems to be our sticking point, so i won't go over it again.

Anyone would rather have a gold than a silver.

But there is a points system in place for each medal.  That's how you work out best team right?
You tally up the scores at most EFN events using this system right?
Why can't we use that to compare results over time.

I am happy to use the 9/3/1 scoring system for medals which you mentioned.

But fell free to ues 9/2/1 that way Xande still wins and you were right. 

2002 - Roger still a brown belt, Xande loses to Pe De Pano, Saulo beats Napao, PDP beats Saulo
2003 - I don't believe Xande entered, Roger loses to Pe De Pano
2004 - Roger beats Marcelinho, Jacare beats Xande, Jacarebeats Roger
2005 - Braulio beats Xande, Jacare beats Braulio, Roger beats Saulo, Jacare beats Roger
2006 - Xande beats Roberto Abreu, Roger beats Marcelo Garcia, Xande beats Roger
2007 - Romulo beats xande, roger beats drysdale, roger beats romulo
2008 - Roger beats Galvao, Xande beats Vella, Xande beats Roger

So they have both competed in the mudials 6 times at absolute  - perfect.

[zafh]

Getting boring now

Yep you are right.
Sorry. 

[J Sho]

2003 Gracia/Terere Mundials Final - full vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=XT4AkfnIx4c

[The HangMan]

2003 Gracia/Terere Mundials Final - full vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=XT4AkfnIx4c

Thank You. Thank You. Thank You

[creely]

2003 Gracia/Terere Mundials Final - full vid http://youtube.com/watch?v=XT4AkfnIx4c

shit i though i seen that befor what a good fight!!!!!

[truemanc]

Roger Gracie!
Because he knows how to use his attributes well.... size strength and weight....

Roger vs Jon Olav Einemo part 1,2,3
Super fight.... no-gi but a good struggle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of2-YNiyPhU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGzFd-OLtmk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKbQ4EDvZe8&feature=related

[Hinch]

I'm shocked at the small amount of votes for Jacare, Terere and Xande.

I personally rate Xande number one. Jacare second, Roger third and Terere JUST over Marcelo at fourth.

[zafh]

Time to bump this thread. 

[DK_]

I think the UK is slightly bias to Roger, but then again hes the man and achieved things no ones else has so gotta be the greatest.